{The List -} Government & Social Engineering

[Mr. Orange]

To clarify, a government in Civ is specific, a "democracy" is hard coded, and any Civ who uses it gets the same bonus.

Rather then saying I am in a "democracy" I was think how though the US or UK are both countries with similar ideas, their effects are different. The US does not have the social welfare net the UK had/has or of that in continental Europe, like Scandinavia. But we also have a lower tax rate, so people can concentrate more waetlh to themselves for whatever. Another example is the US has weapons out the kazoo and uses them (justified or not), other countries might use culture (France) or money (Japan), this effects the make-up of the country.

But still we all considered "democracy" because certain rights are given, free press elections nad that is what I was trying to emulate on the spreedsheet, if cetain "culture" points are used (maybe phiolosophy would be better, but it might interfer with the Tech name), that is your essence.

However policies by your government might be a bit different. And on the empire sheet, the way those points are used woul tell what type of government you are emulating in a braod sense, Like you are Representative Centralised Aristocracy... which might sommething UK was when House of Lords had power.

I think it also gives you flexibity with your own game to change with what is going on, and gives intel to see how the governmet changes to think of what their stategy might be.

[Trifna]

Azazel, I think that the way you described my idea... is decribing another idea
Here a way I would resume it, as an example:


The goal is to look at what forms a government and to see how we could bring all this in a few aspects shown as the SMAC social engeneering.
Example:
"System of values", "Justification of power", "Control system [justice, police...]", "Statecraft", "Administrative structure", "Economic system"
Example of subdivision for "Justification of power":
theocratic - nationalist - militarily enforced - representativity - self-governance - nobility - technocratic
For the complete model: second post at http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...81#post3173279



Here is a quote of the original thing:

I think I can update and resume my way of looking at this:



Goal

The goal is to look at what forms a government and to see how we could bring all this government in a few aspects. The ones I see are "System of values", "Justification of power", "Control system [justice, police...]", "Statecraft", "Administrative structure", "Economic system".




Definitions

- System of values: what forms the core belief for someone's life
- Justification of power: what is the rulers' justification for their power
- Control system: how citizens are controlled (justice, police...)
- Statecraft: who is put to direct the state, which necessarily implies how the state is ruled and its philosophy
- Administrative structure: the way power is divided between the main part the subdivisions
- Economic system: how economy is ruled





Difference with Civ 3 system, and this system's way to look at the problem

The main difference here is that it is about showing what structures and forms the government, not about showing a few possible results to chose from. In other words, it is not about creating categories like "fascism" and "democracy" as in precedent titles, but to show what is forming societies and, of course, someone can bring fascism or representative democracy (or what pleases him) by puting what forms that. ANY society can be built through such a system, in its broad aspects. Everything that forms a government should be there in a simple way.




Example that I brang earlier (updated, and not perfect)

*System of values*
religion - science - nobility [goes from European nobles to Confucius] - individualistic freedom - nationalism

*Justification of power*
theocratic - nationalist - militarily enforced - representativity - self-governance - nobility - technocratic

*Control system*
theocratic - oligarchic - martial - tribal or local - free for all [each locality organized itself as they wish and can]

*Statecraft*
totalitarian [includes king only, pope or else, depending on "justification of power"] - oligarchic [includes king + nobles or whattever else] - moderate democracy [some have more power, like actual democracies] - total democracy

*Administrative structure*
centralized - federation - republic - [Switzerland-like] - decentralized [includes anarchist local self-government, tribal local governance...]

*Economic system*
communism - soft-line communism [not following completely] - wealth state - moderate capitalism - complete capitalism

[Az]

a little bump never hurt anybody.

[Az]

I've copied your short definition from the PM into the OP, Trifna.

I am, again, very sorry guys, that I don't and describe your entire systems the way you want them to, in full detail, however, this is the point of the list, IIUC, to extract the essense, and (hopefully) inject it into Civ4.

Amazingly enough, I like almost all of your ideas, and they rarely contradict. So, hopefully, as many as possible will be implemented.
All that is left is to engage my mind-control probe on the design team.

[Trifna]

Thanks Azazel. Would it help you if people checked how their ideas were resumed and commented if pertinent? Besides, I am not that surprised to see certain common patterns in our ideas


PS: Azazel, I contacted Rael to get a clone of Sid. Do you think we can get anywhere at Firaxis with the cheaper baby model?

[Az]

PS: Azazel, I contacted Rael to get a clone of Sid. Do you think we can get anywhere at Firaxis with the cheaper baby model?

Oh, I think we can get somewhere, but I am afraid that neither of us will like it.



Anyway, tomorrow is duedate, and the man (read: DarkCloud) has said that I better include all of you jerks' models in the OP.


So I guess I should.

[Az]

And I am spent.


This is, (as they called it in the memo ), the "rough draft" of the variety of ideas, and models, that you folks have proposed. Over the following months, I think we should build a single model representing a good compromise that we all can (while grumbling ) agree on.


On a more personal note:

I don't think that a "Civilization" game should lose too much of it's qualities (but I believe in a constant improving of quanitites: more techs, more terrain improvements, more resolution ( a tile will represent a smaller area), more units, more civilizations on a single map, etc. etc. ( to a point of course)

I am, however, a solid believer in radical change in the "Governments" field. SMAC has shown how much rich and interesting it can be. I believe that the devopment of societal models is the future of civilization series. It seems that most of the contributors to the thread agree with me, and I am glad to hear that, because it means that to some extent, my own ideas will be in the game as well.

That doesn't mean, however, that the vast, interesting, complex ideas that so many of you folks have had for the "classical" government model shouldn't be implemented. I think that the vast majority of them can be implemented for SE choices, just as well. Also, additions in the fields of "small wonders", "governments varying over time, and civilization", etc. Are viable options for the SE models as well.

That's why I think that the people in this thread should propose a single unified model: There is nothing that we really disagree upon, for the most part. If we unite, there is more of a chance that "they" will listen to us. "They", are of course, the designers of the game.

Cheers.

[DarkCloud]

Thank you all!

Especially Dalgetti (Azazel) for your tireless dedication to this summary!

I'll get to work on incorporating it into the final document as soon as possible!

[Az]

Cool.

I am eager to see a PDF of the alpha of the list .

[DarkCloud]

well, I can make WORD files, but not PDF's... I don't have that program... so you'll have to regrettably be somewhat disappointed

But word can convert word files into HTML so maybe that'll work

[Az]

You can use OpenOffice to create PDF files.

[Toby Rowe]

Sliders (not my idea BTW),

I love the idea of perhaps upto 6 slider-choices making your government type (control v freedom etc).

No fixed model, Your nation is actually how YOU make it.

All choices will have an impact on the amount of money your government collects, and how happy your people are.

If you combine this slider system with trade and diplomacy sliders, you will have a fluid, dynamic interaction between them giving a unique game every time, if you want to experiment.

Based on this slider idea, I thought of pollution control- How much do you wish to spend on controlling it?

At the end of the day, the programmers need to translate models into idea's;

Whilst sliders might sound simple, it gives a fixed notch in say Trade that mathematically can be applied to other notches in other departments. With even only 24 different sliders, this must get difficult, but possible.
(Military, Trade, Government and Diplomacy share the 24 in total), government and trade get the lion's share of sliders.

Of course, most choices will effect your budget or citizens.

Toby?

(Ps; The diplomacy slider would effect attitude towards a nation, not a diplomatic model, for a real working AI is really needed in this area). The result of a conversation with another nations' diplomats would allow you to change the slider a notch or two towards that nation- and only once every so often, with a commiserate thaw/freezing betwix the two, but war only being allowed on the lowest notches.

[Spiffor]

Idea #1: Bring a political advisor. Just like war, politics can be very fun in a computer game, and it deserves to be an integral part of Civ, hence having its own advisor screen
The political advisor's role will be to warn you in case of unrest or impending unrest, and also to offer an interface for political decisions: change of government or social engineering, and maybe other kinds of decisions about internal politics.

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Idea #2: The idea I'm bringing could complete both a Social-Enginnering model, and a fixed-government model. This idea is influenced by Tropico, which has an excellent and very enjoyable political model.

Along with the major changes that happen when a revolution is held, the player could take small-scale political decisions, called "edicts", "laws", or whatever.

These Edicts do affect the game, and a power-player can optimize them. But their main point is to be flavorful, for the "Little Napoleons" to create their own utopia or dystopia.

Edicts require a tech, but they can also require a government form, a building, a certain # of cities, a minimal population, what have you.

The Political Advisor would ask you if you want to make an Edict once the requirements are met, and you could make or repel Edicts at any time in the Political Advisor screen.

---

Here are three "Edicts" I could think of:
- "Tolerate Dissent":
Requires a government that allows military police (units turn unhappy citizens into content citizens)
Your maximum military police is reduced by one. Every city produces one extra commerce and culture per turn.

- "Religious education":
Requires at least one Cathedral, and the Theology tech.
Each cathedral produces two beakers. Universities raise your beakers by 25% instead of 50%

- "Welfare":
Requires the Communism tech.
All citizens made unhappy by surpopulation become content. It costs two gold per citizen changed and per turn.

What do you think about it (these particular edicts may be unbalanced - I'm talking about the idea in general)

[Toby Rowe]

The simple slider idea has no concept's (or precepts).

Your nation exists only by how you allow it to be, and I repeat, this must a nightmare for computing and maths I think, but would be fascinating if the programmers worked out a way for these sliders to allow this level. Basic for us- not for the blokes that must make it so if they agreed.

Toby

[Trifna]

Toby, you mean that sliders are a problem to bring in games for technical reasons? Then maybe you can change a little what you say to bring it closer to what I say: use only a few fixed positions on the slider, just as in Alpha Centauri.